Curse

Divineshadows · Mar 10, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

We talkin 'bout the same guild wars? Bull's Charge is an amazing skill that's especially strong on a skirmish character.

I moved the portion of discussion on bull's charge into this thread (since one already existed on the merits of bull's charge):

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10124675

Zuranthium · Mar 10, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

No. Sins will usually have 80 AL vs physical, not 70. Frenzy is equivalent to -40 AL for damage affected by armor without AP. 116-40 = 76 < 80.

If in theory the Sin has ALL +physical mods, then the Warrior in theory has ALL +health mods, with exception to maybe Stoneskin gloves. 76 AC + 35 (or 40) health is pretty much the same as 80 AC. Of course these arguments are invalid anyway because a Warrior will very, very rarely stay in Frenzy if an Assassin teleports to him or if it's apparent that the other team is spiking them. Blackout is really the only way to make it happen, unless the Warrior is just not paying attention (and, sorry, but I don't take poor playing choices as any argument regarding game balance). Other than that a Warrior should never be taking serious damage for more than a split second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

We talkin 'bout the same guild wars? Bull's Charge is an amazing skill that's especially strong on a skirmish character.

Heh, I was just being severe. It's a "good" skill but I don't think it's GREAT. There's really just not any build I can think of where I'd want to take that kind of Warrior in comparison to something else. I've never tested Bull's Charge and "On Your Knees", though. It always seemed to me like one of those things that looks GREAT on paper but really doesn't work as well as you want it to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

It might be me, but it still sounds to me like you want to buff Shadow Prison, while Shadow Prison is the only/one of the few sin builds that's actually being played.

I guess you don't know my history on this matter:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115474

I absolutely don't want to see Shadow Prison as one of the very few sin builds that are played. Exactly the opposite. There are SO many great possibilities for the Assassin which are sitting there without a route to being played because the skills themselves just don't cut it; it makes my brain hurt.

I will absolutely never play a 20-second Shadow Prison spiker again unless (A.) I'm guesting and have no other choice, or (B.) I feel like going to an Alliance Battle and wailing on random, hapless players. I'm tired of the build and I truly don't see why people think it's that hard to counter.

I'd like to know about how much energy you think a team expends to fend of a good Warrior/Dervish every 15 seconds (or at least let's just assume 15 seconds anyway, even though it's going to be at least 16 in practice when you consider that Twisting Fangs truly can not be used exactly every 15 seconds because it takes time to activate). Let's restart the discussion from that point.

ALSO, I'd like to note that Shadow Prison itself is not what causes the actual raw numbers in terms of the pressure that you so much fear from a 15-second Sin. An Assassin can already use their full combo every 15 (16) seconds in a pressure build that utilizes hexes and instead of using Shadow Prison as an Elite they could instead switch to something else.

~Z

Isil`Zha · Mar 10, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

eh, I didn't see Discord needing the nerf... hell, I never had a problem interrupting it. Gotta love pissing people of by hitting Discord with Psychic Distraction.

Lordhelmos · Mar 10, 2007, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Even after the nerf the amount of damage a shadow prison sin can do makes any other form of damage laughable, with the exception of a multi-man spike.

In my opinion even with a slap on the wrist SP is way overpowered. As long as it stays like this why the hell would you want to use anything else but SP-black?

Name another character that can solo-kill in one attack chain as effectively as an SP sin?

In my opinion the recharge on SP should be nerfed to at least 30 secs. With even 2 assassins on the enemy team you are talking about 2 characters that have the potential to solo-kill a spellcaster target without prots in under 5 seconds.

Think about monking a 6v6 or 8v8 team. Now think that every 20 seconds that one of your squishies has the potential to be dropped in 5 seconds. Thats someone you have to worry about the entire game unless the sins are shutdown and killed. Thats a hell of alot of pressure. Your damn right I would be worried about that. Among all the other things I'm trying to do, I have to worry about 2 people on the other team toting around a one hit kill cannon.

Two 20 second clocks ticking back in the back of my head, who are the going to hit first? To think that im monking and the one priority on my mind is where the SP or expose is going to land, and if im going to be in a position to throw spirit bond up in time.

Not top tier? I contest that. SP-BoA does it job well. It jumps in, kills, and jumps back out with a sickening effectiveness. Every monk should be worried about that. Of course sins are going to all go SP-Black. It works, it kills, and its been proven effective with the nerf. SP got a slap on the wrist, nothing more.

SP-BoA is still devastating, a little less broken, but still extreme pressure. If any class should be able to kill a single target in one chain it SHOULD be the assassin. Now with SP-BoA they have a purpose.

But the ability to do so every 20 seconds? Hell no.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 10, 2007, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115474

Erm, that's a link to the main page. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The words 'Shadow Prison', 'Assassin', or 'Zurantium' don't appear on the entire page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

ALSO, I'd like to note that Shadow Prison itself is not what causes the actual raw numbers in terms of the pressure that you so much fear from a 15-second Sin. An Assassin can already use their full combo every 15 (16) seconds in a pressure build that utilizes hexes and instead of using Shadow Prison as an Elite they could instead switch to something else.

~Z

Yes, they can and in a hex build they're very scary. I've run it. Still, Shadow Prison makes the chain so much stronger. The inability to kite is a huge one. You're basically forced to endure the whole chain, instead of running away and forcing them to chase you.
You can do exactly what Shadow Prison on a 15 sec recharge would do if you have lots of hexes in your build and a reliable snare or KD too, but that requires several characters, and I don't think it's a good idea to roll that into one skill.

lordelg · Mar 10, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Erm, that's a link to the main page. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The words 'Shadow Prison', 'Assassin', or 'Zurantium' don't appear on the entire page.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10115474

Try that one... fixed it for ya!

Zuranthium · Mar 11, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Thanks for posting the correct link! No idea what happened with that other one, I'll edit it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Yes, they can and in a hex build they're very scary. I've run it. Still, Shadow Prison makes the chain so much stronger. The inability to kite is a huge one. You're basically forced to endure the whole chain, instead of running away and forcing them to chase you.
You can do exactly what Shadow Prison on a 15 sec recharge would do if you have lots of hexes in your build and a reliable snare or KD too, but that requires several characters, and I don't think it's a good idea to roll that into one skill.

Yes, it requires several characters, but the hexes that those other characters are providing are entirely worthwhile all by themselves. The Assassin is simply taking the place of a Warrior or Dervsh in that pressure build. SO, why don't we see Assassins in that kind of build? Because they just don't have greater DPS than other options out there, from what I've tried. Attack chains are vulnerable. If a Dervish misses with his Mystic Sweep, he can still use Wearying Strike the very next second. While the Assassin has the potential for more DPS than any other melee build, on average it's actually not going to be greater. A Warrior, Dervish, or Paragon can generally provide just as much of a threat while being more durable at the same time.

We seem to disagree about the numbers, though. I don't feel that a 15-second Shadow Prison Assassin (with Burst of Agression also dropped down to 3 seconds) would be able to meet the pressure that a Dragon Slasher has. He also has worse armor. But the frequency of the teleports would make up for it. You, however, seem to indicate that a 15-second Shadow Prison would actually be more pressure than any other character in the game. I just don't see that, considering how an Assassin's DPS is so much more compressed and disrupting the Assassin during his critical attack periods vastly reduces his overall effect. That's why I DO think it should be every 15 seconds; it's a matter of "risk vs. reward".

The class has a LOT of skils that need to be improved, though, so that other builds can become equally useful. Just in general I feel that an Assassin + 6 skills should be able to present almost the amount of damage/utility as a Warrior + 7 skills. The Assassin gets that extra slot to slightly push them ahead, which makes up for the fact that their armor is not as good.

~Z

Phades · Mar 11, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If a Dervish misses with his Mystic Sweep, he can still use Wearying Strike the very next second.

A dervish doesnt solo spike down characters the way an assassin can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You, however, seem to indicate that a 15-second Shadow Prison would actually be more pressure than any other character in the game. I just don't see that, considering how an Assassin's DPS is so much more compressed and disrupting the Assassin during his critical attack periods vastly reduces his overall effect.

The idea is to discourage brainless button mashing, not encourage it. Having the skill match up with the spike recharge does not make the build play any smarter, nor does it encourage other assassin builds to be used. It merely enables a easy solo kill in shorter time sets should the opponent not react fast enough to it, or be capable of reacting, due to mes effects in place.

They also repeatedly proved mathmatically how the warrior under frenzy is squisher than the assassin btw. Furthermore, adjusting BoA is a slippery slope, becuase if you adjust one IAS skill, you will invariably have to adjust them all. Better to adjust daggers to not be affected by IAS and building in IAS into the "weaker" dagger attack skills where appropriate, therefore creating a soft nerf to the stronger skills like the black line, while at the same time buffing and creating skill compression into weaker skills making them more attractive.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 11, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

I'm waiting for sins to be removed from the game. Best balance I can think of tbh.

moko · Mar 11, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

^add rits to that and im happy. :/

Zuranthium · Mar 11, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

A dervish doesnt solo spike down characters the way an assassin can.

An assassin doesn't solo spike characters the way people think an Assassin can. And an Assassin can't run around immune to conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

The idea is to discourage brainless button mashing, not encourage it. Having the skill match up with the spike recharge does not make the build play any smarter

I disagree. A 3 second BoA would force people to time it absolutely perfect for full effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Furthermore, adjusting BoA is a slippery slope, becuase if you adjust one IAS skill, you will invariably have to adjust them all.

Umm, then adjust them all. OH NOES. Shifting a few numbers is extremely simple.

And, actually, you wouldn't really need to adjust any others besides BoA? Frenzy is not viable, Flurry drops the damage of the combo, Flail is adrenaline based (and remember, I think teleports should empty adrenaline), and Tiger's Stance has a 20 second recharge anyway.

Only Tiger's Fury might need to be looked at but that already might have enough drawbacks to make it balanced (10 energy and not quite as fast as the Warrior stances).

~Z

Phades · Mar 12, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

An assassin doesn't solo spike characters the way people think an Assassin can. And an Assassin can't run around immune to conditions.

And warrriors arent invicible like you seem to think either...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I disagree. A 3 second BoA would force people to time it absolutely perfect for full effect.

And giving the sin more opportunities to button mash the skill will invariably cause the "perfect" timing to happen simply on accident instead of punishing the sin that flubs up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

And, actually, you wouldn't really need to adjust any others besides BoA? Frenzy is not viable, Flurry drops the damage of the combo, Flail is adrenaline based (and remember, I think teleports should empty adrenaline), and Tiger's Stance has a 20 second recharge anyway.

If you are thinking that minimal use of frenzy is not viable on a sin, but viable when attempting to calculate full uptime frenzy dps on a dragon slash warrior, there is nothing further to add here.

Symbol · Mar 12, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Frenzy is not viable on a sin without a cancel. You might be able to port in and do your combo, but any competent team will make you explode shortly thereafter.

Taking frenzy and a cancel means foregoing expose defenses or a self heal, which is what BoA sins need to have an effective stand presence or gank-which hurts the build considerably.

BoA duration should scale from 1...12...16. This buffs the skill for primary warriors (who now have the choice of an IAS that can be kept up indefinitely at the expense of periodically losing your adrenaline) while making it impossible for secondaries to use it.

Farin · Mar 12, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

and Tiger's Stance has a 20 second recharge anyway.

It's 10 on my game. I don't know how much the 5 second self-blackout affects an assassin who can just recall out but the extra 5 energy certainly adds up.

dgb · Mar 12, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

It's 10 on my game. I don't know how much the 5 second self-blackout affects an assassin who can just recall out but the extra 5 energy certainly adds up.

[skill]Tiger Stance[/skill]
[skill]Tiger's Fury[/skill]

OMGWTFHAX

Zuranthium · Mar 12, 2007, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

And warrriors arent invicible like you seem to think either...

I never said that, lmao. It's simply a fact that they have better armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

And giving the sin more opportunities to button mash the skill will invariably cause the "perfect" timing to happen simply on accident instead of punishing the sin that flubs up.

Yet, a good Assassin will still know how to use their bar better than an average Assassin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

If you are thinking that minimal use of frenzy is not viable on a sin, but viable when attempting to calculate full uptime frenzy dps on a dragon slash warrior, there is nothing further to add here.

Read what Symbol wrote. And, no, I would never calculate a Warrior's DPS as if they could be in Frenzy 100% of the time hitting an immobile target.

~Z

Phades · Mar 13, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Frenzy is not viable on a sin without a cancel. You might be able to port in and do your combo, but any competent team will make you explode shortly thereafter.

The threat difference between a warrior using frenzy and a sin using frenzy really only changes if ranger, paragon, or elemental damage is aimed at the sin. Other forms of it are impractical, due to the requirement to chase down the sin teleport distance, when refering to melee combat, or equal when referencing AL ignoring damage. If a ranger is sitting on the sin, there is a decent chance the combo will just be interupted anyway, making the stance used a moot point in how or if the damage will be inflicted at all. Other than that, it would be a question of if healing up front with a AL penalty outweighs healing over time.

Then again, you could argue that frenzy isnt viable on any character without a cancel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

And, no, I would never calculate a Warrior's DPS as if they could be in Frenzy 100% of the time hitting an immobile target.

Ah good, throw out all comparisons for damage application then when considering balance, since imobile targets are achieved through team play.

Zuranthium · Mar 13, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

I don't get you right now.

It's like when I walk into a Taco Bell and ask for a bowl of rice and they give it to me covered in cheese.

Your words are very greasy.

I think this all stems back to your confusion over the English language. I hear you had trouble as a child. I don't know, maybe it's just a rumor.

Perhaps tomorrow I'll come back, stick a quarter in you, and see if some other tune comes out. I'm sorta over 80's music for the rest of tonight.

~Z